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Archive (no new threads please) >> Magic Industry Information >> T&T's Bad Selling Practices
(Message started by: normalbrains on Nov 5^th, 2004, 12:35am)

Title: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by normalbrains on Nov 5^th, 2004, 12:35am

Check out this page on their site:

http://www.trollandtoad.com/p114548.html

We all know from a fellow board member's experience opening 3 of these boxes that Troll and Toad's Legends boxes contain no Mana Drains (due to a well known printing error). Not only does T&T not explain this VERY important fact, they even list mana drain as one of the prize cards in the set. In fact, they list it first. Does anybody think this a bad business practice? They know about the drain situation. When spending $1500 id like to know if the best card in the set doesnt exist. Especially if they know. Also, I just got an email from T&T touting a 15% discount on Legends packs, so they are actively advertising these packs and boxes.

what do you think?

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by Celebrindor on Nov 5^th, 2004, 12:42am

I got that email too.

I also noticed they are out of a lot of items, and *everything* is overpriced.

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by Erl00 on Nov 5^th, 2004, 1:55am

What I think is that the Legends set does not contain 145 cards ::)

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by TerraFrost on Nov 5^th, 2004, 2:09am

for those who don't know about the printing error...

Quote:

Due to a sorting error in June 1994, prior to packaging, all uncommon Legends cards were divided into two groups. As a result, whole booster boxes were filled with duplicates of only one group of uncommon cards. In response, Wizards of the Coast published a list of all affected cards in The Duelist magazine issue #2 and offered to replace sent-in cards from one group with the same amount of cards from the other group, chosen by the customer. No more than two copies of a card could be sent in, and the offer was limited to 100 cards per person.

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by pickle.69 on Nov 5^th, 2004, 4:06am

on 11/05/04 at 01:55:26, TnT wrote:

Simply the best magic expansion ever! Sure, some of the cards look weak, especially today with 50,000 other cards out there. But they all just look so damn cool! Remember this was the first expansion with gold (multicolor) cards and enchant worlds. Awesome!
-- By from OH on January 08, 2003

I bet they wrote this themselves

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by fvzappa on Nov 5^th, 2004, 5:15am

So where do I find the list of what Uncommons fall under what print run?

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by sylvanstu on Nov 5^th, 2004, 1:30pm

i have duelist 2 i can't find it anywhere

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by Gryfalia on Nov 5^th, 2004, 3:51pm

Look at this pdf:

http://www.crystalkeep.com/magic/lists/files/list-lg.pdf

and read near the top, it explains how to read it and see which uncommons are on which half..

Gryfalia

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by ende73 on Nov 5^th, 2004, 6:33pm

Interesting...

I never knew about that printing error (but then, I only purchased Italian Legends in the past).

Are you saying it's possible to know which uncommons group is included in the box looking at it from the outside when it's still sealed, and if so how ?

Maybe I missed something :P

Ende73

PS - Not defending T&T here, how can you defend someone who writes that Legends has 145 cards ? [smiley=goofy.gif]

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by l0qii on Nov 5^th, 2004, 6:56pm

on 11/05/04 at 00:35:45, normalbrains wrote:

I like how no one has actually addressed the issue at hand. There is a law in the US called Caveat Emptor

Caveat emptor [L.] (Law), let the purchaser beware, i. e., let him examine the article he is buying, and act on his own judgment.

there's a good essay on it here http://www.libertyhaven.com/theoreticalorphilosophicalissues/austrianeconomics/caveatemp.html.

Basically, it's up to you the buyer to know the item you are buying, and know the history surrounding the item you are buying. If you are unsure, ask the seller the appropriate questions. It comes down to a debate of "business ethics" vs personal morals. At most, it would be good karma for them to put a warning about this on the website, if it's indeed true about all their boxes, but they are not required to.

Knowing what I know, I would not buy one of these boxes. I will however continue to do other business with them.

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by TerraFrost on Nov 5^th, 2004, 7:35pm

Quote:

I like how no one has actually addressed the issue at hand. There is a law in the US called Caveat Emptor

as no one has suggested filing a lawsuite against trollandtoad, i'm not really sure that the mentioning of that law is all that relevent, actually ;)

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by l0qii on Nov 5^th, 2004, 7:56pm

His question was "Does anybody think this a bad business practice?" And the answer is no. Not because I don't think it is, but because the economic system T&T operates in has formally declared that it is not. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply anything about suing.

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by Gryfalia on Nov 5^th, 2004, 10:02pm

on 11/05/04 at 18:33:36, ende73 wrote:

Are you saying it's possible to know which uncommons group is included in the box looking at it from the outside when it's still sealed, and if so how ?
[smiley=goofy.gif]

They probably mixed 'Legions' and 'Legends' up (I've done the same to my embarassment).

Anyway, no, there is no way to tell them from the outside. BUT, let's say you purchased 5 cases from some random distributor. Odds are STUNNINGLY good that every single box in those cases are all on the same side of the divide.

Opening one pack will normally answer the question. Plus I seem to recall that there was some sort of Quality Control slip of paper in the boxes that would help ID them too (not 100% sure of my memory on that part).

Gryfalia

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by l0qii on Nov 5^th, 2004, 10:17pm

on 11/05/04 at 22:02:46, Gryfalia wrote:

Plus I seem to recall that there was some sort of Quality Control slip of paper in the boxes that would help ID them too (not 100% sure of my memory on that part).

Gryfalia

At the bottom of the box should be a little piece of paper with a number on it. I'm not sure what you can do with that number though. Whatever happened to those? Is all that info just on the case label now?

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by Cardhaus on Nov 6^th, 2004, 2:55am

A little common sense is needed here folks.

First off, you cannot tell if the Legends box you have is an "A" or "B" box by looking at the outside of the package. The small paper ticket is also on the inside of the box so that theory is out also. Since sealed boxes of older cards sell for quite a premium over loose packs it would not be in the best interest of the seller to open it to check the contents. Since last I checked, my distributor had been sold out of Legends cases since about 1994. Almost all the boxes left unopened are bought 1 or 2 at a time from private collectors so there is no way you can tell if they are A or B versions.

Instead of berating T&T here on the forum for an honest mistake, why don't you try and contact them about their typographical error in the listing of 145 cards.

From the Troll and Toad website:

Quote:

Of the 145 cards in the Legends set, the most famous cards are: Mana Drain, The Abyss, and Moat.

How is this misleading? It states nothing but facts (other than the typo about the size of the set) as to what could be found in the packs and boxes they sell.

Len

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by Celebrindor on Nov 6^th, 2004, 3:09am

I compliment you for standing up for your competition.

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by Allie on Nov 6^th, 2004, 3:17am

on 11/06/04 at 02:55:08, Cardhaus wrote:

That is a good point on the typo. And as to what could be found in the box, that is more on the edge. Reading it you could assume, if you did not know better, that you would get that card. "Buyer beware" is a good rule of thumb" and when writing advertising copy you tend to want to get people excited and not outright lie. The statement they use is factual, although it could be seen as misleading.

The ad copy could also have been written by someone who did not know the difference. And while ignorance is no excuse when selling an item, it could explain the mistakes.

As some have said on this site, T&T seem to have lost their expertise in MTG.

Pointing out the mistake and concern over the copy, and seeing what T&T's response is, would be a very good idea. Especially before anything inflamitory is said about the company in question.

I need to stop before I start sounding like an attorney and spewing facts about libel and slander and the difference between the two ... I almost went into law before sticking with just journalism [smiley=cheeky.gif]

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by Ralph Herold on Nov 6^th, 2004, 3:23am

I agree with Cardhaus. The fact that three booster boxes purchased from Troll & Toad did not contain any Mana Drain cards does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that the remaining booster boxes do not contain any Mana Drain cards as well. As long as Troll & Toad does not know exactly from which case their booster boxes origin and how they were positioned inside the case, they simply do not know themselves whether their booster boxes contain any Mana Drain cards. And even if they knew, they would not have to reveal this information from a legal point of view.

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by TerraFrost on Nov 6^th, 2004, 3:25am

couldn't someone just post a review on the trollandtoad website and mention what's been mentioned here?

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by normalbrains on Nov 7^th, 2004, 12:12am

dont be naive. T&T know exactly where their boxes of legends came from and they know whether or not they contain drains.

id love to hear gaming jim expound on this issue.

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by Muldoon on Nov 7^th, 2004, 12:22am

on 11/07/04 at 00:12:00, normalbrains wrote:

dont be naive. T&T know exactly where their boxes of legends came from and they know whether or not they contain drains.

id love to hear gaming jim expound on this issue.

Actually Jim stated in an earlier thread that they didn't bother searching/scanning their summer packs because there was no good reason for doing so, why would they bother with boxes containing 2-3 drains when they don't bother tampering with boosters potentially containing blue hurricanes?
The previous owners of the legends boxes might have known if they contained drains or not, but I really doubt TNT does.

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by Gryfalia on Nov 7^th, 2004, 12:43am

on 11/07/04 at 00:12:00, normalbrains wrote:

dont be naive. T&T know exactly where their boxes of legends came from and they know whether or not they contain drains.

id love to hear gaming jim expound on this issue.

Don't be silly, I would be stunned if they weren't second hand, and on top of that, third and fourth hand. And that they are mixed together.

I would be STUNNED if they were sitting there, still in original cases, being 'obvious'.

On top of that, 2 mana drains per box isn't that big of a deal when selling sealed product.

Gryfalia

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by normalbrains on Nov 7^th, 2004, 1:35am

maybe ive overreacted. i have this thing with T&T. i dont like them

please forgive me.

smily face contest!!

;D :D ;) :) [smiley=ok.gif] [smiley=shy.gif] [smiley=idea.gif] [smiley=blushing.gif] [smiley=approve.gif]

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by sylvanstu on Nov 7^th, 2004, 7:49am

I'm not happy with them right now either i bought some cards from them they never arrived. I e-mailed them to let them know, no answer. I e-mailed them again they said they would look into it then no answer. I e-mailed them again and they said it was thier policie to wait 3 months to straiten out theese maters.

WHAT so i wait til December to see what next is going to happen.

Til this i have had no problem with T+T, But i have not bought from them since and won't til i see how this goes down in December. [smiley=veryangry.gif]

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by Celebrindor on Nov 7^th, 2004, 8:25pm

If I remember correctly, in a thread from a few weeks ago, several members reported not receiving cards, receiving cards from the wrong set, or the wrong condition. Perhaps if it were not for these previous bad experiences, we would be less suspicious.

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by mds on Nov 10^th, 2004, 4:25pm

Did anyone at all catch the word "new"!?

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by dry_cereal on Nov 11^th, 2004, 5:20am

considering their track record, I think I may begin ordering garbage from them and treat it like a repack.

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by gamingjack on Nov 17^th, 2004, 4:29pm

I was thinking of placing a big order with T&T, I usually buy at my local shop and justed starting buying online. Some of you guys seem like you are against them, but I heard they were the best. Any opinoins/advice?

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by Gryfalia on Nov 17^th, 2004, 6:10pm

Except for one booster missing from a box I bought once (the box was slightly opened and it was gone. I was credited for the missing booster), I've never had a problem.

I've also never had a problem selling to them, which I have done quite a bit..

Gryfalia

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by fvzappa on Nov 17^th, 2004, 6:34pm

I know one of the employees well, & have started dealing with him/them in person. It is easier & I always get my cards...

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by gzeiger on Nov 17^th, 2004, 10:32pm

T&T definitely used to be the best in the business, but it's gone downhill considerably in the last year or so since Jim left. They just don't seem to have the expertise anymore, and they're running out of inventory on the weird things that they used to be good at.

I would now rate Cardhaus.com as the best in the business by a good margin, on the basis of broad selection, good prices (at least on vintage and rarities, which is all I buy) and an impeccable record of honesty and quick service. For example, I know somebody who bought a pack of Beta from them and pulled a Mox... a rare thing these days. They also have a 100% next-day shipping record so far (I live only 50 miles away, but this obviously means they ship orders the day received).

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by gamingjack on Nov 18^th, 2004, 3:10am

on 11/17/04 at 22:32:50, gzeiger wrote:

Thanks for the input - someone on a different board said this Jim fellow was all smoke and mirrors and that he really didnt know as much as he think he does. They said that if it wasnt for troll and toad no one would have heard of the guy.

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by Cyberellium on Nov 18^th, 2004, 3:34am

Hmm I ordered a few alphas from them that arrived quickly and were in correct edition/condition.

Only thing crap about them is their ridiculous prices same goes for star city and cardhaus.

Best Shop = Collectmart 3-4 years ago when they had everything.

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by Gryfalia on Nov 18^th, 2004, 3:37pm

Erm, did I read you .sig right? You are collecting a set of starter? If so, WHICH starter?

I ask because getting a set of starter 1999 is stunningly easy (cept you need to get one starter to get the 'other' cards). I opened 3 boxes and got slightly more than 1 full set in each box of boosters, like clockwork..

Best collation ever.

Gryfalia

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by Celebrindor on Nov 18^th, 2004, 4:13pm

on 11/18/04 at 15:37:24, Gryfalia wrote:

Maybe he was talking about starter 2000? Isnt that quite hard to find?

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by Cyberellium on Nov 19^th, 2004, 12:31pm

Nope amazingly enough it is starter 1999.
I just need to get around to getting the final 35 cards I need to complete my portal series collection finally :)

No worries I guess.

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by normalbrains on Nov 19^th, 2004, 8:47pm

if you need any portal 2, email me

[email protected]

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by Cyberellium on Nov 19^th, 2004, 10:40pm

Thanks anyway but I already have complete sets of portal 1 - 3.

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by gamingjim on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 8:03am

on 11/18/04 at 03:10:43, gamingjack wrote:

Hi Gamingjack (nice Name sound likes Mine)

Wow Never knew I nave had a name for my self be for Troll and Toad. Well if that’s True why did T&T buy out my company to have me work for them? Because Of my name and actions in the Magic world.

I do know a lot about magic cards. I have been in Magic from the very begging in 1993 at Origins in Philly where I first saw the game. I am one of the longest active dealer in the business. Also I am the only dealer who has ever been to Carta Mundi where they print magic cards. My knowledge of Rarities is over whelming. I have bought and broker cards that you or this forum has never seen. I just bought and sold a card in Oct that’s was so rare I can’t tell you what it is, and I have poof that I bought because Ralph (owner of this forum) saw the card.

You may think what you want of me and that’s ok, but you should ask me about my self before going and saying things on the boards.
Thanks
GamingJim

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by giediprime41 on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 10:25am

on 11/22/04 at 08:03:26, gamingjim wrote:

I have bought and broker cards that you or this forum has never seen. I just bought and sold a card in Oct that’s was so rare I can’t tell you what it is, and I have poof that I bought because Ralph (owner of this forum) saw the card.

Ok, you've peaked my curiosity.
What card was it? ;) [smiley=smartass.gif]
Daren

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by Celebrindor on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 12:52pm

on 11/22/04 at 08:03:26, gamingjim wrote:

Also I am the only dealer who has ever been to Carta Mundi where they print magic cards.

Well? Tell us all about it - I want to know!

Also, I know you can't/won't confirm it, but my guess is that you bought either a 1996 World Champion or a Shichifukujin Dragon, confirming my theory that they didn't destroy them all. (but of course you can't say;))

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by victorcamp on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 2:40pm

It could have also been Proposal! :o

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by gamingjack on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 4:53pm

on 11/22/04 at 08:03:26, gamingjim wrote:

Thats a nice little story you have there. Made me feel all warm and tingley all over. Just telling you what I heard, I dont know you, and dont claim to.

Anyhow, since you know so much about troll and toad - should I place my large order with them or go to card haus where the prices are cheaper, but the selection isnt quite as large?

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by ende73 on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 4:57pm

on 11/22/04 at 08:03:26, gamingjim wrote:

Hi Gamingjack (nice Name sound likes Mine)

Wow Never knew I nave had a name for my self be for Troll and Toad. Well if that’s True why did T&T buy out my company to have me work for them?

Maybe because of your English spelling... ? [smiley=laugh.gif]

Sorry for the joke ;) ... honestly, Gamingjim certainly does have a respectable reputation in Magic rarities, whoever thinks otherwise is a fool (although to be accurate Gamingjack was quoting people on other boards if I read correctly).

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by Celebrindor on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 4:59pm

on 11/22/04 at 16:57:46, ende73 wrote:

Well, all I know is that I've bought from gamingjim quite a few times on ebay, and never had a single problem.

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by gamingjim on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 6:09pm

on 11/22/04 at 16:53:52, gamingjack wrote:

Anyhow, since you know so much about troll and toad - should I place my large order with them or go to card haus where the prices are cheaper, but the selection isnt quite as large?

You should go to the one you fell most comfortable with. T&T is not what it used to be, but still a reliably company. Cardhause is also a great company I have a lot of respect for them. Len over at cardhaus is a great man he will help you with his order and knows a lot about magic. Hope this helps.

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by fvzappa on Nov 23^rd, 2004, 1:43am

Never knew queensdomain was bought out by T&T, I thought you were your own seperate entity.

My biggest complaint with T&T was always the prices, they were always a bit too high. But, as a misprint collector I have always taken the time to go find Jim if I have questions aout anything, & of course still look for him with his different company name.

It is hard to educate yourself about misprints, but the biggest trick is to know who to go to.

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by gamingjim on Nov 23^rd, 2004, 4:34am

on 11/23/04 at 01:43:54, fvzappa wrote:

Never knew queensdomain was bought out by T&T, I thought you were your own seperate entity.

No Queensdomain is my new company. Old company was Gamingjim's Magic cards out of New York.

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by dry_cereal on Nov 23^rd, 2004, 6:31am

do you still live in NY? Would be fun to meet up at neutral ground or something grab a rootbeer.

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by fvzappa on Nov 23^rd, 2004, 6:43pm

Jim is in Kentucky.

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by BenBleiweiss on Nov 23^rd, 2004, 8:58pm

on 11/23/04 at 06:31:10, dry_cereal wrote:

do you still live in NY? Would be fun to meet up at neutral ground or something grab a rootbeer.

Man, I remember when I used to WORK for Neutral Ground. Say hi to Matt and Don and everyone else for me!

BB

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by dry_cereal on Nov 24^th, 2004, 12:45am

you're probably before his time, but did you ever meet chunk?

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by gamingjack on Nov 24^th, 2004, 2:28am

on 11/23/04 at 18:43:23, fvzappa wrote:

Jim is in Kentucky.

Gamingjim - do you live with yer sister down there in Kentucky? Let me know your shoe size, I would happy to send you a pair. I hate for folks to have to go barefoot...

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by Celebrindor on Nov 24^th, 2004, 3:02am

on 11/24/04 at 02:28:48, gamingjack wrote:

Gamingjim - do you live with yer sister down there in Kentucky? Let me know your shoe size, I would happy to send you a pair. I hate for folks to have to go barefoot...

uncalled for

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by Celebrindor on Nov 24^th, 2004, 4:58am

on 11/23/04 at 01:43:54, fvzappa wrote:

My biggest complaint with T&T was always the prices, they were always a bit too high.

Thats the worst part - they have EVERYTHING (well, a lot at any rate, best selection i've seen), but the prices are off the chart, and i'm not sure if I can trust them. You should have bought out some inventory when you left, Jim.

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by gamingjack on Nov 24^th, 2004, 4:32pm

on 11/24/04 at 03:02:09, Celebrindor wrote:

uncalled for

twas just a joke, no need to get all defensive. I'm sure Mr Jim didnt take it personally.

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by jessithegreat on Nov 25^th, 2004, 3:23am

on 11/24/04 at 02:28:48, gamingjack wrote:

Gamingjim - do you live with yer sister down there in Kentucky? Let me know your shoe size, I would happy to send you a pair. I hate for folks to have to go barefoot...

I believe its all about the donkeys down in Kentucky my dear ;) right Jim?

Title: Re: T&T's Bad Selling Practices
Post by gamingjack on Nov 25^th, 2004, 5:33am

on 11/25/04 at 03:23:45, jessithegreat wrote:

I believe its all about the donkeys down in Kentucky my dear ;) right Jim?

What?!? Gamingjim has a pet donkey? Maybe thats what all of the ass talk was about... j/k