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Archive (no new threads please) >> Promotional and Unofficial Magic Items >> 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
(Message started by: hammr7 on Jun 3^rd, 2004, 7:05pm)

Title: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by hammr7 on Jun 3^rd, 2004, 7:05pm

As an active eBay bidder, I take more than a passing note of activities there. In recent months virtually all Crazy Clown tokens have received a very cold shoulder. This seems to be indicative of the entire collectible industry realizing that counterfeits have surfaced. Other tokens (such as the Hong Kong inserts) have maintained markedly better values, so interest in tokens is still out there.

If you look now, virtually none of the recent and current eBay Minagishi offerings are garnering bids. Of course, these are being offered out of both Singapore and Italy, which are known sources for the copies.

Eventually some of our 10th series tokens will be offered, either in trade or as sales, to collectors outside of the rarities community. I'm a bit surprised that none have been offered yet on eBay. Hopefully the taint of current copies won't affect these transactions.

The numbering system on the sketched and autographed cards actually offers a model of how we might better protect all the other cards. We know there are only 101 sets total, so there are 91 copies of each token (including the "model" set currently offered by Ralph), that don't have an autograph. If we can organize a means of numbering these remaining tokens, then every one of the 10 series tokens will be numbered. With the proper system, we can even assign numbers to those members who wish to keep a sealed pack. That way, if anyone ever wants to break the pack, they would know what numbers to give their cards.

I have a couple of different ways that such a system might be implemented. Before discussing specifics, however, I think there should be discussion of whether we want to do something like this. If a majority of the tokens are numbered, then the remaining owners avoid numbering at their own risk, at least if they ever wish to trade or sell their tokens. If numbers become the norm, then non-numbered tokens will be considered possible counterfeits.

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by dragsamou on Jun 3^rd, 2004, 7:19pm

Hi Hammer7.
As I thought about that situation,for different reasons.
I do believe that if All the Tokens were Numbered,it should have been done at first,cause now,some of them are in the Wild. Anyway,as I have extras,I was thinking about different possibilities:
-To make a little note on the back to certified,I was the original Owner,but I do not think that all the people will like the idea.
-To put a Number on them.But Which one?
1 to 100 is already taken by the Signed and Sketch ones
At any rate I will definately Support that project,but be quick as 30 Tokens will be spread in Paris tomorrow ;)

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by hammr7 on Jun 3^rd, 2004, 7:33pm

I agree that numbering first would have been better, but we can't change the past (otherwise I would have won the 9th series autographed tokens ;D ).

I didn't want to get into numbering details without discussion but there are a few ways that numbering could occur.

The easiest possibility would be to utilize the number from the autographed token. You could then add a hyphen, and a second number (1 to 10) for the token. So it you got a zombie autograph (assume #30 as an example), then the angel from that set would become "30-1". The beast would become "30-2". The demon would become "30-3". There would be no "30-10", because a set with an autographed zombie would not have a non-autographed zombie.

While this is easiest for owners, it means that any non-autograph set can't have all the same numbers. This might be a good thing to thwart counterfeiters, but I have alternate options if the one above is deemed undesirable.

The best bet, until this issue is resolved, is to try and keep track of who gets tokens, at least for the next week or two, so you can track them down if needed.

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by dragsamou on Jun 3^rd, 2004, 7:50pm

on 06/03/04 at 19:33:48, hammr7 wrote:

I agree that numbering first would have been better, but we can't change the past (otherwise I would have won the 9th series autographed tokens ;D ).

Hi.
Who knows ::)
I will have bought the Foil Minion and Foil Squirrel on my part :'(
But Minagishi Tokens from the beginning of M.R. are Special to me :)
Anyway,let's go back to numbering,how you do when like me you bought 10 Boosters(For a Signed Set),and that you have boosters without the Signed now and already exchange the missing ones that you took from the others Boosters.This method seems complicate for that example Direct Live and others Members face the same situation already.Now,the 30 Tokens that I bring tomorrow to French Rarities Members still have the Signed Card(If I don't stole it to myself on the road ;D)
Now,I have Boosters without Signed Cards,and about 10 Extras Tokens who doesn't make a Complete Set.See my point,another solution is necessary at that level.Owners of Minagishi 10 Th Series raise your voice please :)

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by silver.paladin on Jun 3^rd, 2004, 7:58pm

on 06/03/04 at 19:33:48, hammr7 wrote:

The easiest possibility would be to utilize the number from the autographed token. You could then add a hyphen, and a second number (1 to 10) for the token. So it you got a zombie autograph (assume #30 as an example), then the angel from that set would become "30-1". The beast would become "30-2". The demon would become "30-3". There would be no "30-10", because a set with an autographed zombie would not have a non-autographed zombie.

Hello Hammr7,
I see what you are suggesting here, but I have to ask - how will this stop counterfeiters? They can do this exact same thing to their fakes. And, since Magic Library is not an exclusive site, there are many member and non-member lurkers here who are reading this, and any attempt to create an anti-forgery idea will be read by them, and they will know what is happening, and they will easily figure out how to bypass it.

How many people who have these cards will include them in the site here? For me, as an example, nobody (other than maybe GamingJim) know how many sets I have, what numbers they are, and which sketches and signed cards I have. And I for one am not about to go and write or do anything else to these cards - I am keeping them in the exact same condition they were received in.

I have also been following the Minagishi cards on Ebay for quite some time, ever since I (and I few others) got duped in the initial fake offerings (i.e. 5-goblin cards).

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by bigfatkitty on Jun 3^rd, 2004, 8:12pm

I feel it would be a bad idea to deface the cards. Or deback the cards depending on where you put the mark. ;D

Since we haven't seen any conterfeit tokens of newer Minagishi sets, I believe the fears are unwarranted as of yet. Also, these tokens are of a thinner quality and will be more easily recognized if a thicker counterfeit version shows up later.

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by dragsamou on Jun 3^rd, 2004, 8:21pm

on 06/03/04 at 20:12:46, bigfatkitty wrote:

Hi BFK :)
I have to admit that the Idea of writing on these Tokens is Totally against me,if they will have been Numbered from the beginning find,but Alteration,now,is not the best of the Solution.I totally agree with you that the White Back and the thin Card Stock,is a good warranty as so far Only Minagishi with Backs have been counterfeited.Question remains,about if Members will have prefered a System where all the Tokens will have been Numbered at first,I'm very interested to know about that point.

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by dry_cereal on Jun 3^rd, 2004, 8:32pm

I'm just not going to sell mine.

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by bigfatkitty on Jun 3^rd, 2004, 8:51pm

on 06/03/04 at 20:21:00, dragsamou wrote:

I agree it would have been a good idea to number them from the start, but if I can fake a token, I can fake a number as well. This just seems a bit paranoid to me.

As far as the tracking we've done so far, it really only seems to matter as far as a point of interest. I won't report when I trade or sell any of my tokens. It's just silly. ;D Anyone looking to sell them now won't have to worry about fakes and could probably get $100 a set on Ebay today. And if you already have some, why would you worry about fakes? You're probably not going to try to buy any more 6 months from now anyway. So in the end, I won't care if they start selling fakes or not because I won't be interested in more and I'll have already sold my extras.

Sorry for the rant. :(

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by AXIOS on Jun 3^rd, 2004, 9:25pm

on 06/03/04 at 20:32:13, dry_cereal wrote:

I'm just not going to sell mine.

me neither and i defintely am not gonna write on mine, nor put any small signs or other crap on the cards.

So you guys can number and doodle on as many tokens as you want, but count me out!

you are all starting to get paranoid :-/

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by hammr7 on Jun 3^rd, 2004, 9:43pm

For a few clarifications:

1. If you never sell or trade, then none of this matters

2. I understand the concerns of marking tokens. But every one of the autographed/sketched cards has been numbered by someone (I don't know whether this was done by the artist, or later). As long as the markings are done carefully, the plusses of numbering might outnumber the minuses.

3. Some members seem concerned about losing "value" of specific tokens. Right now all Minagishi tokens are devalued because of the counterfeiters - there simply aren't any good ways for a casual collector to be confident that what they purchase is real. Unique numbering, by responsible parties (like this group), can provide a reassurance. In so doing, we can focus confirmation of validity towards members of this forum, which seems to be the most appropriate place.

Think of the numbering as a sort of PSA validation. If the tokens don't have a number we can challenge the seller on the token's authenticity (like a supposed PSA card being offered, but the PSA number being hidden). If a counterfeiter tries to put arbitrary numbers on tokens, they will quickly encounter knowledgable resistance from this forum if the numbers are out of whack. If I have token # 21-7 and some eBayer (or other seller) offers that token for sale, you can bet I'll let everybody know! While the system isn't perfect, it adds another level of validation to protect the non-autographed tokens.

4. While only cards are currently counterfeited, I am concerned that the stock used for the 10th series tokens will be easier to duplicate than regular card stock. And since only Rarities members have these tokens, there is no easy reference (other than current owners) if counterfeits do appear.

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by AXIOS on Jun 3^rd, 2004, 10:32pm

and that's why the offer was only valid for rarities members.

now they are spreading throughout paris and and a lot more countries (singapore, italy?)

Mayor increasing the chance of counterfeits!
The tokens should have stayed in the hands of members!
I'm not gonna mark my tokens

Title: .Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by silver.paladin on Jun 3^rd, 2004, 10:42pm

on 06/03/04 at 22:32:57, AXIOS wrote:

now they are spreading throughout paris and i don't know where else anymore. (singapore, italy?)

In an effort to reduce the unknown spread of possible viral Minagishi tokens - I propose that we start by removing all tokens from the Netherlandians. ;D

Title: Re: .10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by AXIOS on Jun 3^rd, 2004, 10:50pm

on 06/03/04 at 22:42:03, silver.paladin wrote:

In an effort to reduce the unknown spread of possible viral Minagishi tokens - I propose that we start by removing all tokens from the Netherlandians. ;D

hmm, shall i destroy them? :D

and thereby destroying the soldier sketch so that at least one set can never be completed.

Maybe that's a good netherlandian solution ;D

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by TerraFrost on Jun 3^rd, 2004, 11:23pm

i think that those members who chose to register their cards with some sort of tracking service - either motorcitymagic's or mine (i prefer mine, obviously ;)) - will, if the tracking services become popular, sorta get a premium for having cards which can be easily verified as being authentic. for my utility, what i sorta envisioned was this:

when someone wants to sell a card, they post a link to the verify card portion of my script on their ebay auction. after they sell it, they transfer it to the new owner, and the new owner can then sell it on ebay, or whatever.

also, ralph knows which people have how many sets. perhapes he knows which sets people have as well? i mean, sets can still be randomly given out even if the person giving out the sets knows which sets are numbered what.

Title: Re: .10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by bigfatkitty on Jun 3^rd, 2004, 11:26pm

on 06/03/04 at 22:50:13, AXIOS wrote:

hmm, shall i destroy them? :D

and thereby destroying the soldier sketch so that at least one set can never be completed.

Maybe that's a good netherlandian solution ;D

Only a Netherlandian would want to destroy a sketched Minagishi. Grind it to dust with the heal of your wooden shoe.

I think the only people who wil eventually care would be a future non-current member purchaser. And to be blunt, you should always realize there is a certain risk in buying what you: a) Have no way of verifying it's legitamacy or b) Anything from an unknown party.

I'm just very glad I don't have to put together a standard collector's edition backed Minagishi set today.

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by bigfatkitty on Jun 3^rd, 2004, 11:30pm

on 06/03/04 at 23:23:58, TerraFrost wrote:

This all sounds good in theory, but me for example, I've already mixed and matched my signed tokens and will more than likely sell individual unmarked tokens off to unregistered buyers. I won't register cards I move to other people as many want it to be a private matter. I'm sure in the end we won't be able to account for all the sketches due to privacy issues anyway.

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by Ralph Herold on Jun 4^th, 2004, 12:00am

I do not wish to sound too negative, but I deeply believe that there is no way to insure that these cards will not be subject to forgery. The reason is that not everybody is willing to publish his or her ownership of the cards and that token cards will be resold to people who are not affiliated to this community and therefore do not care about any tracking system at all. Forgery can not be eradicated, all you can do is to learn how to protect yourself.

TerraFrost: I have no clue who is in possession of which cards - and neither is Jim. All we know is who bought packs and how many.

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by AXIOS on Jun 4^th, 2004, 12:55am

on 06/04/04 at 00:00:12, Ralph Herold wrote:

that's not negative ralph, just the plain truth

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by dry_cereal on Jun 4^th, 2004, 1:34am

why should we worry about it. We already own the real ones, and can verify they are real by making reference to our presence on the site and our reciepts of payment to jim. So don't worry about forgery, it doesn't effect me.... coincidentally that happens to be my stance on most issues. ;D

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by TerraFrost on Jun 4^th, 2004, 2:27am

Quote:

I'm sure in the end we won't be able to account for all the sketches due to privacy issues anyway.

motorcitymagic's tracking method may not be privacy friendly, as it, up front, tells you everyone who owns it, but my method doesn't do that. my method will only tell you whether or not someone owns a card if someone else knows their username and the card that they might own, in the first place. so, while my method might not alieviate all privacy concerns, it does a much better job at elimating them than motorcitymagic's method does, imho.

but, anyway, i also think tracking projects are only as effective as the percentage of people who contribute. if it isn't succesful, then live and let live, i guess, heh. it wasn't a bad idea, and for my part, writting the php script was kinda fun, heh :)

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by gzeiger on Jun 6^th, 2004, 9:44am

As one who was away at work and looked into the site just a few hours too late to buy a set :'( I must say I don't place any faith in the idea that these tokens have some unique feature that will make them difficult to counterfeit. I've never seen one, and presumably I could be fooled by even the shoddiest copy.

I would not buy these from anyone who could not verify the cards' history for me and trace it back to an original purchaser. For people who already own them, I can't offer much incentive except that there will shortly be a premium price offered for participation in any tracking scheme, or maybe I could appeal to your interest in preserving a unique bit of Magic history.

My preference as a potential buyer is for Ralph or Jim to retain a record of who bought tokens originally. Then if one of those members wishes to sell them, a buyer could verify their source. This will become more difficult as tokens become more scattered and have a longer ownership history, but I doubt they will change hands too many times.

Numbering seems a bit silly for reasons noted above.

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by Charlie on Jun 13^th, 2004, 7:19pm

How about producing a certificate for each card to ensure its authenity? Even if they dupe the cards they still only have one certificate

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by TerraFrost on Jun 13^th, 2004, 7:56pm

atleast until they start duping the certificates ;)

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by fvzappa on Jun 14^th, 2004, 5:50am

Exactly. There is simply no way to keep fakes from surfacing, & no way to be sure they are real unless you got them directly (which explains why I own no other tokens like these). Once these get traded off- which I'll bet some already have- it's fair game.

I faced this situation when I purchased the Alpha playtest cards I own. Fakes are easy to make, so you just have to watch your step, get them from a trusted source, & don't be a part of the problem. And cross your fingers.

I have to admit I am curious how much these'll go for on ebay. Anyone planning on selling?

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by TerraFrost on Jun 14^th, 2004, 6:18am

well, i do think tracking projects could work, if everyone kept them up to date, but... the draw side is, they'd only really work if everyone kept it up to date...

i should think that the premium they might get if being verifiable, in some sort of tracking project, might be incintive enough to do it, but ah well, heh.

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by hammr7 on Jun 14^th, 2004, 8:48am

Tracking only works if the technology to produce the cards or tokens is sophisticated enough to make counterfeiting difficult (like magic cards or better yet, paper currency), or if there is an orderly, logical means to identify each individual tokens or cards. PSA does the latter by slabbing cards and tokens in a [supposedly] tamper-proof shell and giving each shell a unique number. With tokens, if they all are uniquely numbered, fraud becomes more difficult. The counterfeiter can't keep using the same number, and the more numbers he uses, the more likely his scam will be uncovered by the real owners. Without the numbering, the scammer can blend in too easy.

For example, lets assume that ~100 copies of each Minagishi token have been made. If someone in Singapore or Italy starts selling knock-offs, we figure they must be frauds, but we can't easily prove any one of them is a fraud until we actually have the token. For most frauds this is already too late.

But if the same seller has to tell us which Angel token is being sold, and claims it is number 41 (because a number is written on the back of legitimate tokens), we can look up who the owner of 41 is (or at least was). If that "real" owner still has the token, we know of the fraud before buying the token. If the scam gets too hard for the scammer to work, then the scam goes away.

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by TerraFrost on Jun 14^th, 2004, 9:37am

Quote:

For example, lets assume that ~100 copies of each Minagishi token have been made. If someone in Singapore or Italy starts selling knock-offs, we figure they must be frauds, but we can't easily prove any one of them is a fraud until we actually have the token. For most frauds this is already too late.

actually, we can. tracking allows people to trace back their cards to their origins. cards that aren't uniquely identifiable can be tracked to their origins just as easily as cards that are uniquely identifiable. if someone can't trace their card back to its origin (what i'm gonna call a "pedigree"), or if even a single claimed transaction can't be verified, then there is room for doubt. if *every* legit card can be traced back to its point of origin, and if the owner of some random card can't provide a "pedigree" of their card, then it can very safely be assumed that there card is fake.

and even if only *most* legit cards can be traced back to their point of origin, a card which can't be tracked back to its point of origin simply doesn't deserve the markup that cards that can be tracked to their origin can get. i mean, contributing to a pedigree kinda shows you care about your card. if you can't care to do that, then should people really care to buy from you for the prices you might desire?

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by tsanchan on Jun 14^th, 2004, 2:55pm

When I read the announcement by Ralph that 5 extra token sets were left I didn't hesitate to send an email and try my chance. But when I was lucky and won and got the token set, I was kind of disappointed. The reason is that I was expecting normal MTG style cardboard tokens, while the ones I got are as if they are printed on a quality paper, but not a Magic-card-like cardboard. (Heck, they might even be stickers; I didn't check if they are.)

I have been trying to decide if I want to keep the token set since then. I probably would sell it on Ebay if I knew I would get back the money I put in, but this is by no means guaranteed on Ebay as you all know.

I hope I am making sense. I am just a collector who is not totally sure what to collect I guess. :P

on 06/14/04 at 05:50:18, fvzappa wrote:

I have to admit I am curious how much these'll go for on ebay. Anyone planning on selling?

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by Tenacious_Dyl on Jun 14^th, 2004, 4:14pm

Preventing anything is only marginally good. Just like it is nearly impossible to print fakes without spending millions on our methods to produce things others can't make.

I compare this to burglary. You can buy a fancy lock for your door, and they will break the window. You can get a security system, and they will run away faster, or in numbers. You can get motion sensors and they will snip the wires.... etc.

A certificate for each of the 10 packs would be nice... but again, anything can be faked.

Title: Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
Post by Charlie on Jun 15^th, 2004, 8:41pm

on 06/14/04 at 14:55:49, tsanchan wrote:

You could probably net far more than that :P No one here would hestitate to buy a set for only 40 :D

back to the issue, though, gamingjim said he would sell the remaining tokens on ebay (or no sets left now?) and I can't see any buyer would cooperate with us on that.