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Topic: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all? (Read 497 times) |
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bigfatkitty
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Re: .10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #15 on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 11:26pm » |
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on Jun 3rd, 2004, 10:50pm, AXIOS wrote:
hmm, shall i destroy them? 
and thereby destroying the soldier sketch so that at least one set can never be completed.
Maybe that's a good netherlandian solution  |
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Only a Netherlandian would want to destroy a sketched Minagishi. Grind it to dust with the heal of your wooden shoe.
I think the only people who wil eventually care would be a future non-current member purchaser. And to be blunt, you should always realize there is a certain risk in buying what you: a) Have no way of verifying it's legitamacy or b) Anything from an unknown party.
I'm just very glad I don't have to put together a standard collector's edition backed Minagishi set today.
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bigfatkitty
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #16 on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 11:30pm » |
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on Jun 3rd, 2004, 11:23pm, TerraFrost wrote:
i think that those members who chose to register their cards with some sort of tracking service - either motorcitymagic's or mine (i prefer mine, obviously  ) - will, if the tracking services become popular, sorta get a premium for having cards which can be easily verified as being authentic. for my utility, what i sorta envisioned was this:
when someone wants to sell a card, they post a link to the verify card portion of my script on their ebay auction. after they sell it, they transfer it to the new owner, and the new owner can then sell it on ebay, or whatever.
also, ralph knows which people have how many sets. perhapes he knows which sets people have as well? i mean, sets can still be randomly given out even if the person giving out the sets knows which sets are numbered what. |
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This all sounds good in theory, but me for example, I've already mixed and matched my signed tokens and will more than likely sell individual unmarked tokens off to unregistered buyers. I won't register cards I move to other people as many want it to be a private matter. I'm sure in the end we won't be able to account for all the sketches due to privacy issues anyway.
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Ralph Herold
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #17 on: Jun 4th, 2004, 12:00am » |
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I do not wish to sound too negative, but I deeply believe that there is no way to insure that these cards will not be subject to forgery. The reason is that not everybody is willing to publish his or her ownership of the cards and that token cards will be resold to people who are not affiliated to this community and therefore do not care about any tracking system at all. Forgery can not be eradicated, all you can do is to learn how to protect yourself.
TerraFrost: I have no clue who is in possession of which cards - and neither is Jim. All we know is who bought packs and how many.
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AXIOS
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #18 on: Jun 4th, 2004, 12:55am » |
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on Jun 4th, 2004, 12:00am, Ralph Herold wrote:
I do not wish to sound too negative, but I deeply believe that there is no way to insure that these cards will not be subject to forgery. The reason is that not everybody is willing to publish his or her ownership of the cards and that token cards will be resold to people who are not affiliated to this community and therefore do not care about any tracking system at all. Forgery can not be eradicated, all you can do is to learn how to protect yourself.
TerraFrost: I have no clue who is in possession of which cards - and neither is Jim. All we know is who bought packs and how many. |
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that's not negative ralph, just the plain truth
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dry_cereal
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #19 on: Jun 4th, 2004, 1:34am » |
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why should we worry about it. We already own the real ones, and can verify they are real by making reference to our presence on the site and our reciepts of payment to jim. So don't worry about forgery, it doesn't effect me.... coincidentally that happens to be my stance on most issues.
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TerraFrost
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #20 on: Jun 4th, 2004, 2:27am » |
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| I'm sure in the end we won't be able to account for all the sketches due to privacy issues anyway. |
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motorcitymagic's tracking method may not be privacy friendly, as it, up front, tells you everyone who owns it, but my method doesn't do that. my method will only tell you whether or not someone owns a card if someone else knows their username and the card that they might own, in the first place. so, while my method might not alieviate all privacy concerns, it does a much better job at elimating them than motorcitymagic's method does, imho.
but, anyway, i also think tracking projects are only as effective as the percentage of people who contribute. if it isn't succesful, then live and let live, i guess, heh. it wasn't a bad idea, and for my part, writting the php script was kinda fun, heh 
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gzeiger
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #21 on: Jun 6th, 2004, 9:44am » |
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As one who was away at work and looked into the site just a few hours too late to buy a set  I must say I don't place any faith in the idea that these tokens have some unique feature that will make them difficult to counterfeit. I've never seen one, and presumably I could be fooled by even the shoddiest copy.
I would not buy these from anyone who could not verify the cards' history for me and trace it back to an original purchaser. For people who already own them, I can't offer much incentive except that there will shortly be a premium price offered for participation in any tracking scheme, or maybe I could appeal to your interest in preserving a unique bit of Magic history.
My preference as a potential buyer is for Ralph or Jim to retain a record of who bought tokens originally. Then if one of those members wishes to sell them, a buyer could verify their source. This will become more difficult as tokens become more scattered and have a longer ownership history, but I doubt they will change hands too many times.
Numbering seems a bit silly for reasons noted above.
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Charlie
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #22 on: Jun 13th, 2004, 7:19pm » |
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How about producing a certificate for each card to ensure its authenity? Even if they dupe the cards they still only have one certificate
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TerraFrost
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #23 on: Jun 13th, 2004, 7:56pm » |
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atleast until they start duping the certificates
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fvzappa
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #24 on: Jun 14th, 2004, 5:50am » |
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Exactly. There is simply no way to keep fakes from surfacing, & no way to be sure they are real unless you got them directly (which explains why I own no other tokens like these). Once these get traded off- which I'll bet some already have- it's fair game.
I faced this situation when I purchased the Alpha playtest cards I own. Fakes are easy to make, so you just have to watch your step, get them from a trusted source, & don't be a part of the problem. And cross your fingers.
I have to admit I am curious how much these'll go for on ebay. Anyone planning on selling?
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TerraFrost
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #25 on: Jun 14th, 2004, 6:18am » |
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well, i do think tracking projects could work, if everyone kept them up to date, but... the draw side is, they'd only really work if everyone kept it up to date...
i should think that the premium they might get if being verifiable, in some sort of tracking project, might be incintive enough to do it, but ah well, heh.
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hammr7
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #26 on: Jun 14th, 2004, 8:48am » |
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Tracking only works if the technology to produce the cards or tokens is sophisticated enough to make counterfeiting difficult (like magic cards or better yet, paper currency), or if there is an orderly, logical means to identify each individual tokens or cards. PSA does the latter by slabbing cards and tokens in a [supposedly] tamper-proof shell and giving each shell a unique number. With tokens, if they all are uniquely numbered, fraud becomes more difficult. The counterfeiter can't keep using the same number, and the more numbers he uses, the more likely his scam will be uncovered by the real owners. Without the numbering, the scammer can blend in too easy.
For example, lets assume that ~100 copies of each Minagishi token have been made. If someone in Singapore or Italy starts selling knock-offs, we figure they must be frauds, but we can't easily prove any one of them is a fraud until we actually have the token. For most frauds this is already too late.
But if the same seller has to tell us which Angel token is being sold, and claims it is number 41 (because a number is written on the back of legitimate tokens), we can look up who the owner of 41 is (or at least was). If that "real" owner still has the token, we know of the fraud before buying the token. If the scam gets too hard for the scammer to work, then the scam goes away.
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TerraFrost
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #27 on: Jun 14th, 2004, 9:37am » |
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| For example, lets assume that ~100 copies of each Minagishi token have been made. If someone in Singapore or Italy starts selling knock-offs, we figure they must be frauds, but we can't easily prove any one of them is a fraud until we actually have the token. For most frauds this is already too late. |
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actually, we can. tracking allows people to trace back their cards to their origins. cards that aren't uniquely identifiable can be tracked to their origins just as easily as cards that are uniquely identifiable. if someone can't trace their card back to its origin (what i'm gonna call a "pedigree"), or if even a single claimed transaction can't be verified, then there is room for doubt. if *every* legit card can be traced back to its point of origin, and if the owner of some random card can't provide a "pedigree" of their card, then it can very safely be assumed that there card is fake.
and even if only *most* legit cards can be traced back to their point of origin, a card which can't be tracked back to its point of origin simply doesn't deserve the markup that cards that can be tracked to their origin can get. i mean, contributing to a pedigree kinda shows you care about your card. if you can't care to do that, then should people really care to buy from you for the prices you might desire?
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| « Last Edit: Jun 14th, 2004, 9:39am by TerraFrost » |
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tsanchan
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #28 on: Jun 14th, 2004, 2:55pm » |
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When I read the announcement by Ralph that 5 extra token sets were left I didn't hesitate to send an email and try my chance. But when I was lucky and won and got the token set, I was kind of disappointed. The reason is that I was expecting normal MTG style cardboard tokens, while the ones I got are as if they are printed on a quality paper, but not a Magic-card-like cardboard. (Heck, they might even be stickers; I didn't check if they are.)
I have been trying to decide if I want to keep the token set since then. I probably would sell it on Ebay if I knew I would get back the money I put in, but this is by no means guaranteed on Ebay as you all know.
I hope I am making sense. I am just a collector who is not totally sure what to collect I guess. 
on Jun 14th, 2004, 5:50am, fvzappa wrote:
I have to admit I am curious how much these'll go for on ebay. Anyone planning on selling? |
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Tenacious_Dyl
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #29 on: Jun 14th, 2004, 4:14pm » |
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Preventing anything is only marginally good. Just like it is nearly impossible to print fakes without spending millions on our methods to produce things others can't make.
I compare this to burglary. You can buy a fancy lock for your door, and they will break the window. You can get a security system, and they will run away faster, or in numbers. You can get motion sensors and they will snip the wires.... etc.
A certificate for each of the 10 packs would be nice... but again, anything can be faked.
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