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Topic: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all? (Read 496 times) |
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hammr7
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10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 7:05pm » |
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As an active eBay bidder, I take more than a passing note of activities there. In recent months virtually all Crazy Clown tokens have received a very cold shoulder. This seems to be indicative of the entire collectible industry realizing that counterfeits have surfaced. Other tokens (such as the Hong Kong inserts) have maintained markedly better values, so interest in tokens is still out there.
If you look now, virtually none of the recent and current eBay Minagishi offerings are garnering bids. Of course, these are being offered out of both Singapore and Italy, which are known sources for the copies.
Eventually some of our 10th series tokens will be offered, either in trade or as sales, to collectors outside of the rarities community. I'm a bit surprised that none have been offered yet on eBay. Hopefully the taint of current copies won't affect these transactions.
The numbering system on the sketched and autographed cards actually offers a model of how we might better protect all the other cards. We know there are only 101 sets total, so there are 91 copies of each token (including the "model" set currently offered by Ralph), that don't have an autograph. If we can organize a means of numbering these remaining tokens, then every one of the 10 series tokens will be numbered. With the proper system, we can even assign numbers to those members who wish to keep a sealed pack. That way, if anyone ever wants to break the pack, they would know what numbers to give their cards.
I have a couple of different ways that such a system might be implemented. Before discussing specifics, however, I think there should be discussion of whether we want to do something like this. If a majority of the tokens are numbered, then the remaining owners avoid numbering at their own risk, at least if they ever wish to trade or sell their tokens. If numbers become the norm, then non-numbered tokens will be considered possible counterfeits.
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dragsamou
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #1 on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 7:19pm » |
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Hi Hammer7.
As I thought about that situation,for different reasons.
I do believe that if All the Tokens were Numbered,it should have been done at first,cause now,some of them are in the Wild. Anyway,as I have extras,I was thinking about different possibilities:
-To make a little note on the back to certified,I was the original Owner,but I do not think that all the people will like the idea.
-To put a Number on them.But Which one?
1 to 100 is already taken by the Signed and Sketch ones
At any rate I will definately Support that project,but be quick as 30 Tokens will be spread in Paris tomorrow 
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| « Last Edit: Jun 3rd, 2004, 7:23pm by dragsamou » |
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hammr7
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #2 on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 7:33pm » |
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I agree that numbering first would have been better, but we can't change the past (otherwise I would have won the 9th series autographed tokens  ).
I didn't want to get into numbering details without discussion but there are a few ways that numbering could occur.
The easiest possibility would be to utilize the number from the autographed token. You could then add a hyphen, and a second number (1 to 10) for the token. So it you got a zombie autograph (assume #30 as an example), then the angel from that set would become "30-1". The beast would become "30-2". The demon would become "30-3". There would be no "30-10", because a set with an autographed zombie would not have a non-autographed zombie.
While this is easiest for owners, it means that any non-autograph set can't have all the same numbers. This might be a good thing to thwart counterfeiters, but I have alternate options if the one above is deemed undesirable.
The best bet, until this issue is resolved, is to try and keep track of who gets tokens, at least for the next week or two, so you can track them down if needed.
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dragsamou
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #3 on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 7:50pm » |
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on Jun 3rd, 2004, 7:33pm, hammr7 wrote:
I agree that numbering first would have been better, but we can't change the past (otherwise I would have won the 9th series autographed tokens ).
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Hi.
Who knows 
I will have bought the Foil Minion and Foil Squirrel on my part 
But Minagishi Tokens from the beginning of M.R. are Special to me 
Anyway,let's go back to numbering,how you do when like me you bought 10 Boosters(For a Signed Set),and that you have boosters without the Signed now and already exchange the missing ones that you took from the others Boosters.This method seems complicate for that example Direct Live and others Members face the same situation already.Now,the 30 Tokens that I bring tomorrow to French Rarities Members still have the Signed Card(If I don't stole it to myself on the road )
Now,I have Boosters without Signed Cards,and about 10 Extras Tokens who doesn't make a Complete Set.See my point,another solution is necessary at that level.Owners of Minagishi 10 Th Series raise your voice please
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silver.paladin
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #4 on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 7:58pm » |
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on Jun 3rd, 2004, 7:33pm, hammr7 wrote:
The easiest possibility would be to utilize the number from the autographed token. You could then add a hyphen, and a second number (1 to 10) for the token. So it you got a zombie autograph (assume #30 as an example), then the angel from that set would become "30-1". The beast would become "30-2". The demon would become "30-3". There would be no "30-10", because a set with an autographed zombie would not have a non-autographed zombie.
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Hello Hammr7,
I see what you are suggesting here, but I have to ask - how will this stop counterfeiters? They can do this exact same thing to their fakes. And, since Magic Library is not an exclusive site, there are many member and non-member lurkers here who are reading this, and any attempt to create an anti-forgery idea will be read by them, and they will know what is happening, and they will easily figure out how to bypass it.
How many people who have these cards will include them in the site here? For me, as an example, nobody (other than maybe GamingJim) know how many sets I have, what numbers they are, and which sketches and signed cards I have. And I for one am not about to go and write or do anything else to these cards - I am keeping them in the exact same condition they were received in.
I have also been following the Minagishi cards on Ebay for quite some time, ever since I (and I few others) got duped in the initial fake offerings (i.e. 5-goblin cards).
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bigfatkitty
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #5 on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 8:12pm » |
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I feel it would be a bad idea to deface the cards. Or deback the cards depending on where you put the mark.
Since we haven't seen any conterfeit tokens of newer Minagishi sets, I believe the fears are unwarranted as of yet. Also, these tokens are of a thinner quality and will be more easily recognized if a thicker counterfeit version shows up later.
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dragsamou
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #6 on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 8:21pm » |
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on Jun 3rd, 2004, 8:12pm, bigfatkitty wrote:
I feel it would be a bad idea to deface the cards. Or deback the cards depending on where you put the mark.
Since we haven't seen any conterfeit tokens of newer Minagishi sets, I believe the fears are unwarranted as of yet. Also, these tokens are of a thinner quality and will be more easily recognized if a thicker counterfeit version shows up later. |
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Hi BFK
I have to admit that the Idea of writing on these Tokens is Totally against me,if they will have been Numbered from the beginning find,but Alteration,now,is not the best of the Solution.I totally agree with you that the White Back and the thin Card Stock,is a good warranty as so far Only Minagishi with Backs have been counterfeited.Question remains,about if Members will have prefered a System where all the Tokens will have been Numbered at first,I'm very interested to know about that point.
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dry_cereal
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #7 on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 8:32pm » |
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I'm just not going to sell mine.
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #8 on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 8:51pm » |
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on Jun 3rd, 2004, 8:21pm, dragsamou wrote:
Hi BFK
I have to admit that the Idea of writing on these Tokens is Totally against me,if they will have been Numbered from the beginning find,but Alteration,now,is not the best of the Solution.I totally agree with you that the White Back and the thin Card Stock,is a good warranty as so far Only Minagishi with Backs have been counterfeited.Question remains,about if Members will have prefered a System where all the Tokens will have been Numbered at first,I'm very interested to know about that point. |
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I agree it would have been a good idea to number them from the start, but if I can fake a token, I can fake a number as well. This just seems a bit paranoid to me.
As far as the tracking we've done so far, it really only seems to matter as far as a point of interest. I won't report when I trade or sell any of my tokens. It's just silly. Anyone looking to sell them now won't have to worry about fakes and could probably get $100 a set on Ebay today. And if you already have some, why would you worry about fakes? You're probably not going to try to buy any more 6 months from now anyway. So in the end, I won't care if they start selling fakes or not because I won't be interested in more and I'll have already sold my extras.
Sorry for the rant. 
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AXIOS
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #9 on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 9:25pm » |
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on Jun 3rd, 2004, 8:32pm, dry_cereal wrote:
| I'm just not going to sell mine. |
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me neither and i defintely am not gonna write on mine, nor put any small signs or other crap on the cards.
So you guys can number and doodle on as many tokens as you want, but count me out!
you are all starting to get paranoid 
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| « Last Edit: Jun 3rd, 2004, 9:27pm by AXIOS » |
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hammr7
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #10 on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 9:43pm » |
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For a few clarifications:
1. If you never sell or trade, then none of this matters
2. I understand the concerns of marking tokens. But every one of the autographed/sketched cards has been numbered by someone (I don't know whether this was done by the artist, or later). As long as the markings are done carefully, the plusses of numbering might outnumber the minuses.
3. Some members seem concerned about losing "value" of specific tokens. Right now all Minagishi tokens are devalued because of the counterfeiters - there simply aren't any good ways for a casual collector to be confident that what they purchase is real. Unique numbering, by responsible parties (like this group), can provide a reassurance. In so doing, we can focus confirmation of validity towards members of this forum, which seems to be the most appropriate place.
Think of the numbering as a sort of PSA validation. If the tokens don't have a number we can challenge the seller on the token's authenticity (like a supposed PSA card being offered, but the PSA number being hidden). If a counterfeiter tries to put arbitrary numbers on tokens, they will quickly encounter knowledgable resistance from this forum if the numbers are out of whack. If I have token # 21-7 and some eBayer (or other seller) offers that token for sale, you can bet I'll let everybody know! While the system isn't perfect, it adds another level of validation to protect the non-autographed tokens.
4. While only cards are currently counterfeited, I am concerned that the stock used for the 10th series tokens will be easier to duplicate than regular card stock. And since only Rarities members have these tokens, there is no easy reference (other than current owners) if counterfeits do appear.
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AXIOS
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #11 on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 10:32pm » |
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and that's why the offer was only valid for rarities members.
now they are spreading throughout paris and and a lot more countries (singapore, italy?)
Mayor increasing the chance of counterfeits!
The tokens should have stayed in the hands of members!
I'm not gonna mark my tokens
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| « Last Edit: Jun 3rd, 2004, 10:52pm by AXIOS » |
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silver.paladin
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.Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #12 on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 10:42pm » |
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on Jun 3rd, 2004, 10:32pm, AXIOS wrote:
now they are spreading throughout paris and i don't know where else anymore. (singapore, italy?)
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In an effort to reduce the unknown spread of possible viral Minagishi tokens - I propose that we start by removing all tokens from the Netherlandians.
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AXIOS
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Re: .10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #13 on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 10:50pm » |
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on Jun 3rd, 2004, 10:42pm, silver.paladin wrote:
In an effort to reduce the unknown spread of possible viral Minagishi tokens - I propose that we start by removing all tokens from the Netherlandians. |
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hmm, shall i destroy them? 
and thereby destroying the soldier sketch so that at least one set can never be completed.
Maybe that's a good netherlandian solution
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Re: 10th series Minagishi-should we track all?
« Reply #14 on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 11:23pm » |
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i think that those members who chose to register their cards with some sort of tracking service - either motorcitymagic's or mine (i prefer mine, obviously ) - will, if the tracking services become popular, sorta get a premium for having cards which can be easily verified as being authentic. for my utility, what i sorta envisioned was this:
when someone wants to sell a card, they post a link to the verify card portion of my script on their ebay auction. after they sell it, they transfer it to the new owner, and the new owner can then sell it on ebay, or whatever.
also, ralph knows which people have how many sets. perhapes he knows which sets people have as well? i mean, sets can still be randomly given out even if the person giving out the sets knows which sets are numbered what.
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